Wellness

Kayla: Social media provides an instant way for people around the world to connect. But for many, unplugging from this digital reality can be a challenge. South Washington County Schools, a suburban school district in Minnesota, is looking at how social media impacts mental health for students inside and outside of school through its podcast - Living Online.

I’m your host Kayla Pedersen. In this podcast, I’ll use my experience as district lead school counselor to guide conversations with experts in their field. We’ll talk about social media and its impacts on mental health and how parents can support their child in navigating this landscape.

In today’s episode, we’ll talk about social media, it’s roles in schools, and how it’s changing the way students learn and form relationships.

I’m joined today by South Washington County Schools Superintendent Keith Jacobus.

Keith: Thank you, I’m happy to be here.

Kayla: Park High School Teacher Maria Tol.

Maria: Thanks so much for having me.

Kayla: And Social Media and Mental Health Expert Erin Walsh.

Erin: It’s wonderful to be here.

Kayla: Thank you all for being here. So to start off the conversation today, we’re going to start off with Erin. So in a general sense, how has social media changed the way people form and maintain relationships?

Erin: Yeah that’s a great question, I mean in many ways it changes everything and nothing. Young people have always looked for ways to connect. Spaces where they can form identity and communicate and collaborate, and that is true of kids and youth in 2019 just as it’s always been. But of course, where that’s happening is changing dramatically. We used to talk about sort of offline and online friendships, and really, the lines between those spaces are increasingly blurred. Because young people today are, of course, extending real-world friendships into online spaces and off again throughout the day. We have data that reminds us that young people are spending seven hours and twenty-two minutes a day with entertainment media. Of course, not all of that is social media time but it’s a place where people start relationships, maintain friendships and relationships, navigate conflicts and increasingly is the preferred space, in some ways, of where young people are connecting.

Keith: I find the connection or starting the relationship very interesting, and watching my own kids navigate social media as they grew up. It’s so much easier to connect in terms of dating, to start with a text or a social media message. It starts the conversation where maybe the two wouldn’t have connected in person, so I find it fascinating and also really a positive element of social media that allows maybe a shyer person to get right into the conversation and connect with people in a way that they may not have been able to or wouldn’t have done in the past.

Erin: Absolutely, it think sometimes we think of these spaces as being; like we’re so worried kids are connecting with other people that they might not know, but we want young people to be connecting. We want them to be forming positive relationships. And I think you’re right, for some kids, this is where they feel most seen and known and most supported, and that’s a place where there is less barrier for starting that connection and maintaining it.

Maria: I think too that piece right like you know “Moulin Rouge,” everyone just wants to love and be loved in return. So many students are, and really so many humans, are taking that opportunity to – I like what you said about finding and really valuing their identity, and being able to find groups of people that are similar and really being able to dig in in ways that maybe they may not be able to based on just everyday communications or everyday pieces that happen person-to-person.

Keith: I think that makes it an interesting issue for us in education on how we help kids navigate, so you’re not always listening to the same opinions. When you do connect with people who think like you, you may go too far sometimes and not hear some of the questioning aspects of a theory or an idea that might really push your thinking as well.

Maria: Yeah, I think echo-chambers are so easy to create, and probably even more so, it feels like, online without knowing it. When we think about all the analytics that go into what is actually served to us online, that opportunity for us to be really intentional in helping kids find spaces, even online, so that it’s not an echo-chamber, and they can find those various perspectives. Because the value is online you have every perspective available, it’s just how much do you have to look to find that.

Erin: Right, I mean the internet is supposed to be this democratizing force, but certainly, increasingly, you have to sort of make that happen. You have to actively seek out people outside your bubble and people that aren’t served up to you via the algorithm. But, I think the more that we can get young people to think about that and kind of use their critical thinking skills about, you know, where do I go and why, who do I see there and what do I hear, how does that reflect on what I’m hearing offline or am I being engaged with new perspectives, you know we find that the more that we can have young people thinking and reflecting – like you said, mindful – about where they’re going, the more proactive they can be. Instead of just going where everybody goes, it’s like going somewhere for my own personal development, or my political development, or to actually think about your goals as a young person.

Kayla: So I’m curious, Maria, have you seen that in the classroom?

Maria: I think in the classroom we see a number of things. The first would be that definitely, just in the same way that adults can fall into that echo-chamber, that space of finding people that were similar or close to them anyway, even though there is a huge variety of perspectives available. The other thing that I find interesting in the classroom is that I think because we as humans so deeply crave connection, sometimes that’s then what brings students to their devices when they may have an opportunity to connect with somebody human-to-human or face-to-face in the classroom, and so that opportunity for us as educators too to intentionally and purposefully build in time and reason to build skills of how to maintain those relationships out of the online sphere, but also really just bringing people that joy again of what it means to have those relationships with people who they may not otherwise have. So that’s one of my favorite things to do is build those relationships not just with me and the students, but instead between students, because that’s how they’ll hear different perspectives and that’s how they’ll really feel valued and honored in the work that they’re doing every single day both in real life and online.

Keith: The idea of leveling the playing field through the “social media first” connections is really, I think, a positive for kids at any age, but particularly as we’re developing our own self-concept of ourselves and how embarrassing everything can be to us if we don’t feel like we fit the mold. But then I think, taking it further, so once that confidence is built up – as you said, in the classroom – make the connection, now let’s connect face-to-face, which is critical for that furthered development where we wanna go as the human race I would think.

Erin: Yeah, you know, one of my favorite studies, Dr. Clifford Nass, before he passed away, did this incredible study on heavy media multitasking middle schoolers, specifically tween girls. The study originally looked at heavy media multitasking tween girls everything got worse for them. The kinds of things we want for tween girls like their self-esteem went down sense of social normalcy, sense of social competence. So at first it’s sort of all the news headlines across the country were like, social media is awful for tween girls, but what I love about this study is that it ended up not really being so much about technology and more about what it means to be human. What he found was that for every hour of face-to-face time those tweens got back, even if their media use continued to be high, everything got better. So it wasn’t so much a study of media is bad, but that when it completely displaces the practice. I think we think of connection as easy, but it’s actually hard. It takes practice, it’s messy, it’s complicated, it’s nerve-racking if you don’t have a set of social skills, especially as your building them as a young person. We see that a lot in studies on media, that at first, we think it must be the tech, and it’s so much about how we use them, and it’s sort of what are we bringing to the table in addition to the device.

Maria: Yeah one of the pieces that I read was an interesting piece that media itself isn’t necessarily good or bad, but the people who have good external relationships, so those face-to-face relationships, social media actually helps them, and they become more positive and more effective in the work that they’re doing. But the people who don’t have those social skills of connection or they don’t have so many relationships outside of that, those are the people that then are hurt even more by the use of social media. So I just think what an even more important imperative for us as educators, to make sure that students are learning and practicing like you said, those messy skills of how to communicate with others face-to-face because that does feel totally different than doing online in that safe space. So being able to do that face-to-face and enjoying both the trials, tribulations, and joys of that all together with their peers or with other people.

Keith: I think you lose that ability of what your brain does, connect us with our emotions. You can’t have that emotional connection without seeing the person. The whole concept of the mirror neurons mimicking emotional reactions between us is lost online. So I think it’s easy to go to the negative piece of the online, I think, if you’re concerned about kids being isolated, and really to truly develop the empathy and the kindness that we need and the emotional maturity, we have to be face-to-face in a conversation at some point. It is great that we still have kids in school, coming to school.

Kayla: I see that actually too even as a school counselor, students will come many times to our office and are struggling with the situation of whatever it might be, and one of the main questions is, “Have you talked to your friend?” for example, “Well, no, it's all technology.” Building off of what Keith said it’s hard that you can’t judge their emotions when it’s through technology, so we just see that a lot in the school counseling field as far as trying to teach them those skills to communicate. And teach them those messy skills because it’s not perfect, they’re still learning and they’re still trying to figure their best way to communicate with others. Keith, I’m curious, how have you noticed these changes at a district level?

Keith: Well it’s changed a great deal as far as when kids put out things on social media that they shouldn’t, particularly the harassment aspect or the bullying aspect of social media. That has become a really difficult place and a difficult aspect to navigate for administrators. Many times we hear about threats or things that were on social media at night, and it’s out there and hundreds and thousands of kids and families might have seen it before we even know about it, so we’re reacting to that trying to find out what’s accurate, how was it put out there, was there true intent behind it, and so that has been completely different over the last five to ten years I would say than ever before.

The other aspect is just the ease of communication for us through our social media pages as a school district, we can put out our message quickly, we can get great news out in an instant. So there are some really wonderful things where in the past we had to wait for a newsletter to come out or word of mouth, now it’s out there instantly. Both of these examples are the good aspects of it with our positive communication and proactive, and the difficult issue when kids put things out there that you wish they didn’t or they didn’t mean to and they didn’t see the ramifications and what it does to an entire school community when that word spreads.

Erin: Similar to what we were talking about earlier, social media kind of mirrors and magnifies issues that we’ve always been grappling with. So all of the sudden this sort of cruelty that might happen or the bullying that might happen, it’s likely still happening offline but then once it goes on social media it becomes sort of fuel to the fire and mirrors and magnifies. Which means that so much of the heavy lifting had to happen at home too, you know, as a parent partnering with the school district, partnering with educators to say what can we all be doing, because there’s so much happening in out of school time.

Kayla: I think that’s a great point, social media a lot of times get a bad rep as far as all of this bullying and harassment that happens, but it is something that’s been going on before social media even existed it just wasn’t as out there and reaching thousands of people before the morning. So I think it is a really important aspect for our listeners to think about these issues were already there, but obviously, with social media, it just makes it almost easier and it brings it to a front where people are noticing them and seeing them a lot more.

Keith: I think there’s gonna be a great aspect for kids or a positive aspect as they away to college and then start their lives staying connected with people that you could easily lose touch with after high school and as an adult, both in the social media pages but also in – and this might not be social media – but just the phone conferencing and phone calls that brings a whole different element to staying in touch with each other, which I think will be really positive for kids as they go; and it is currently positive for adults right now when kids go away to college.

Erin: Yeah and I love the video chatting stuff I mean that’s true for college students and then, you know the last time the American Academy of pediatrics talked about their screen time rules, one of the big changes was like, you know, video chatting is pretty much always great, like all the way down to little babies, I mean infants don’t really know what’s going on. But this idea that really when we see positive connections happening that means good things for kids whether it’s heading off to college, or whether you’re staying in touch with a family member out of state, or parents engaging in those kinds of uses of media with their kids at home can be really helpful.

Keith: One other aspect I feel that has changed for us, which is a concern, is just sleep patterns. We already struggle with sleep patterns with adolescents and our start times and their circadian rhythms, but because of the devices that wash the melatonin out so effectively when kids are on it late at night, we have a compounded issue that they come to school more sleep-deprived.

Kayla: I think that’s a great point. I’m curious, Maria, do you see that in the classroom or do you hear students talking about sleep patterns and technology?

Maria: Yeah, I think that I’ve heard more students talk about – even to the level of like sleep paralysis things going on or getting, on average, three to four hours of sleep at night – I feel like I’ve heard more about that lately. I mean, since the dawn of time students have talked about being tired, adults talk about being tired, we all talk about being tired, but some of those sorts of pieces where they’re talking about something a little bit more significant than just that tired feeling. I have heard more of that in the classroom than before.

Erin: Yeah I think in so many, I’m so glad you brought up sleep, because when we look at the relationship between social media and mental health, you can’t talk about that without talking about sleep because it’s such a strong mediating factor. Once you control for sleep, the impact of social media on our mental health gets much smaller because we know what our brains need in order to manage our feelings and focus our attention, it’s that incredible restorative power of sleep. So we know that once screen time goes up, sleep tends to go down and once devices come to our bedrooms, whether you are a teenager or a grown-up, you are asleep for less time and your sleep is more disrupted. So yeah I think that when we think about mental health and screen time, sleep is right there at the table because it’s such a strong factor.

Kayla: So for our listeners, and especially the parents out there, Erin I’m curious what are some of your thoughts as far as this issue of sleep, what parents could do, and families.

Erin: Yeah it’s not a popular one, but I think we all can benefit from a tech curfew. So sending a thirteen-year-old into her room with a cell phone at night and saying, you can have your phone but don’t look at it, is really a developmentally Herculean task so I think we know that we sleep best when our devices are off and away. And because impulse control for all of us is less strong at night, the likelihood that I’m gonna be able to resist that text message at 11:00 p.m., 1:00 a.m., 2:00 a.m. is really small. So I think when we start looking at social media and mental health, one of the places we can start, honestly, is with a tech curfew.

The hard part for you parents listening is that your teenager is not gonna turn to you and be like, “Thank you so much for the tech curfew, I feel more energized and I can really feel my mood brightening,” your gonna get a door slam and a, “you’re the only parent,” so it’s hard. Does that mean you rush into your eighteen-year-old’s room and grab their phone, maybe not, but I think because we’re thinking about as device ownership age is down – so now we know that half of eleven-year-olds have their own smartphone – we need to get really serious about how we’re protecting sleep and healthy sleep habits, which for young developing brains really means it’s off and always at night.

Maria: I think on your website you had the phrase, “proximity is destiny”?

Erin: That’s a quote from a designer, Tristan Harris, who has done a lot of work around persuasive design, so how our devices are designed to make it – I don’t wanna say impossible – very difficult for us to unplug.

Maria: I love that phrase because it’s just that quick reminder, proximity is destiny and if it’s near my daughter then chances are she will pick it up, it’s just going to happen that’s the destiny of it. And so that proximity piece of off and away, out of the room entirely is gonna be helpful.

Erin: Yeah, charging it in a different room, you know. And it’s the same thing with homework if it’s close to me and I see a notification it is so hard for me not to respond.

Keith: And I’m not sure if everyone’s in agreement, not the research, but it probably takes about two hours of being away from that screen time to let your brain to reset and start to release the melatonin you need, which doesn’t put you to sleep it just gets you ready to sleep. So if you keep pushing that away, you’re never gonna be primed to sleep and you’re just not going to. I think that’s the tough thing for kids, if we still had landlines, it’d be great to say talk on the phone until eleven or twelve, it’s different than what happens with the screen because it doesn’t affect the physiology.

Erin: Yeah I heard a sleep scientist once talk about how we get to sleep, it’s not a switch that we flip, it’s an on-ramp that’s pretty slow, it’s a lot slower than we think. So I think, exactly, teens often think, well I’m off my phone now I should be able to fall asleep, and of course that’s not how our bodies work. We need that screen-free on-ramp for good sleep.

Kayla: I think that’s wonderful thoughts to consider as we move forward and blaze this new trail of social media and we know it’s not going away anytime soon, so it’s good that we got some feedback for our listeners to think about that sleep and how that affects your children. So talking about some of the benefits and some of the not so good things that come with social media as well, as we go back to maybe some of the other benefits that we’ve seen, could we expand a little bit more on some of the other benefits that we’ve seen either in the schools or classrooms?

Maria: Yeah, I think it’s just been tremendous for students to be able to connect with people around the world and to see what other people are doing to be able to learn from other teachers. If they don’t understand something from the way that I might be teaching it, we can find so many different resources for them. In fact, we can even find fellow peers who are learning the same thing in a different classroom in a different state altogether and they can connect with that person. So those opportunities we would’ve never had.

The other piece is I think it has really done a great job of leveling, again, the playing field of students being able to have equal access to that sort of information, equal access to seeing the immersive google pieces where you can look at Machu Picchu and you can look at all of those places. So students have the opportunity to go on virtual field trips and do the things even with a peer so that way they can learn about all of the variety of things that are in the world if maybe their parents aren’t taking them on vacation in 80,000 different places. So I think that there is a lot of opportunity for connection for the benefit of learning there is also a lot of opportunity for students to, through that connection, learning a lot and get a lot of perspectives, but I think that all has to be intentional, not just the teacher part but also the student part in what their intent is in that space.

Keith: I think that calling it social/learning media makes it feel better because it truly is a learning media and all of the things that even with podcasts and Ted talks and all of the things that kids can see in first-line research; there’s a masters degree out there just on following some of the different podcasts that kids are able to access anytime they want, and adults, as there really are not enough hours in the day to learn as much as you’d like to. So I see the really positive benefits of that getting into the first line research and hearing from people that are experts in the field that are across the globe, and being able to have that at your fingertips is unbelievable really when I think back to my education and what it’s like now.

Erin: Yeah, we see kids doing that outside the school day. When we ask it’s like, they’re doing self-directed learning this is what we want for kids, we want them to be having questions and, you know, what Berkeley’s digital youth project calls: kids are geeking out after school. They’re finding mentors, and that’s one of the things that we know parents and out of school time providers can do is help, instead of the message being turn that off that’s a mindless waste of time, is being a media mentor, to say what are your interests and how can I connect you to the reliable sources and to the things that we know you need to develop those online interests. We know that in out of school time some kids have those media mentors, but a lot of kids are still spending out of school time with media as just the entertainment, just the social side not the learning media side, and that’s one gap that we can really see where adults can play a huge role in helping them jump over that idea of this isn’t just a source just to hang out with my friends, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s also a tool to learn, it’s also a tool to collaborate, it’s also a tool to take voice in conversations that I care about. And we see that young people need caring adults to help them jump over that gap in out of school time.

Keith: And I feel that’s our responsibility as educators, with the media platforms we give to our students to take home and utilize, how do we help them see the benefits and how do we help them delve into the positive aspects and connect it with social media because I think if we put our heads in the sand and think that we have more to offer in our lesson than social media that’s not gonna happen, but I think there’s a strong connection that we can look at both ways so there’s learning and social. But it does take effort and we’re still learning as we go.

Kayla: What are some of the ways as we try to jump over that gap and we see some of these benefits, we also see some of the areas of growth that we need to do as a district because we’re constantly learning as technology and social media is constantly changing. What are some of the ways that we could address this as a district, or maybe our district has already talked about addressing this.

Keith: Well it think that there’s the balance that teachers are always going to be the most important person in learning if we balance, we don’t want to give that to the technology even though there are wonderful things out there, that there needs to be mentorship and guidance and coaching of kids. And maybe our role shifts from even the thought of the word teacher, to the word coach, and pulling them in and guiding them as we go forward.

Maria: Yeah I think that piece of guiding students; and with the technology available, it becomes so much easier because we can so quickly and easily differentiate and really be able to have students start on their space and be able to help people in every different step because now we have the wide variety of learning opportunities as well as sources and resources to be able to connect them with. So it doesn’t have to be one hundred percent of the teacher talking, hopefully not right, but instead that teacher can be that mentor, that guide, that coach in helping them figure out what sources to find, how to do that. To be honest, students also help me find, oh yeah I’ve heard about that for sure, but you should also see this, this, and this, because they’ve been immersed in this their whole lives where I’m definitely kind of an immigrant to all of this. And that opportunity for them to say, oh you should also check out this, and so to have students also share with one another the different resources that exist. I think as teachers it’s a really awesome opportunity, you know, like we said this isn’t going away, so how can we do a better job of facilitating this and the opportunity for us as teachers to help students practice that online presence, to practice that online voice, to practice that idea of really connecting with people out in the world so that it isn’t just for entertainment anymore, but what would your professional self online presence be. And have students start working through and processing and practicing with that.

Keith: I think the point of students helping us is really critical because they really are so well versed in so many things that we need to bring their voice into our teaching maybe more. And I look at one of my sons, no matter what the concept is, if I ask him a question he’s read something about it online. It’s just unbelievable how much knowledge because he’s really an eclectic reader and he just goes from one thing to another, and so having asking our kids what do you need or how you could help guide us is really important.

Erin: Yeah and you know we talk to parents about the same thing, and as a parent myself, I think sometimes it’s tricky because some of the messier work with technology has to happen at home, or happens at home. So we see these amazing educational benefits at school and then what we hear from parents sometimes is like, oh but it’s so hard at home with screen time so we lose sight and we know we need to talk about the realness of how hard it is sometimes to set limits around technology as parents, but sometimes then we also forget that we can be media mentors too, that we can find that space. So being really practical, what does that look like at home, sometimes it’s as simple as actually, instead of just saying turn it off, saying how did you get to level three or how did you get to this next level, you know, show me what you’re doing in your gaming worlds or tell me a little bit about where you’re going. One of the things we know is that when parents or caregivers can mirror back those digital strengths, they start doing them more. So being willing to take those few minutes to think about, you know, I heard that gamers are really good at this, what do you think of that and does that make you better at something offline. We talk to parents about wanting to do a lot of bridging questions, bridging conversations, taking online strengths and figuring out if we can help narrate ways if those are also strengths in offline spaces.

Kayla: Awesome, thank you. So I think with all of the information that we’ve put out there today, is there any other closing thoughts?

Keith: You know, even communicating through email has changed. Where I have a phone on my desk that rings maybe once every other month, which is really shocking with how many people connect with us but it’s on email, and I think that’s something to keep in mind and many times if I have an email I’ll call because we get to talk about the tone. So I think it’s something we can’t take for granted and get complacent about. I think it is all of the things that were said here today are important that we keep in mind that both parents, teachers, and kids that were in the same venue talking about this and how to use it most effectively and how to stay out of the pitfalls where you can get yourself in trouble before you know it.

Maria: I think just that piece of remembering always, you know, as humans relationships first, that idea of online and offline, the idea of really focusing on connecting with one another in that way that we can lift each other up and bring each other to our best self whether, again, it’s online or offline because that’s really what we crave and that’s really when we all do our best work.

Erin: Yeah I think with this stuff, with social media, in particular, it’s so easy for us, at least with my parenting hat on, to think about all of the things we don’t want kids to do. And sometimes it’s comforting for me, as we’ve talked about today to remember what we do want kids to do, that what young people need to thrive hasn’t changed since we started studying kids, so you know with connection and participation and then boundaries, that the kids are doing all right. So it’s staying focused on what are the sort of vitamins or what are the protective factors rather than just the long list of fears around tech.

Kayla: Well thank you, thank you all so much, and thank you so much for sharing all of your experiences with social media and your knowledge today. The information that was shared in this podcast is just invaluable to all of our listeners, so thank you and I really appreciate you being here today.

Thank you for listening to our conversation today. You can learn more about our guests and find tips and resources about managing social media and mental health online at www.sowashco.org/livingonline. This podcast was produced by South Washington County Schools thanks to funding from a grant provided by Prairie Care.

Kayla: Social media provides an instant way for people around the world to connect. But for many, unplugging from this digital reality can be a challenge. South Washington County Schools, a suburban school district in Minnesota, is looking at how social media impacts mental health for students inside and outside of school through its podcast - Living Online.

I’m your host Kayla Pedersen. In this podcast, I’ll use my experience as district lead school counselor to guide conversations with experts in their field. We’ll talk about social media and its impacts on mental health and how parents can support their child in navigating this landscape.

In today’s episode, we’ll talk about the realities of growing up with social media. I’m joined today by East Ridge High School student, Brennan Featherstone, Park High School student, Jack Nelson, and Woodbury High School student, Manashree Padiyath. These three students will share their experiences today, so thanks again for being here. As a senior here in District 833, let’s talk about your typical day. How much time do you think you typically spend on social media?

Brennan: So I think for me personally I relatively spend 15-30 minutes a day on social media, I'm a busy person, so my time is pretty limited. I know a lot of students are age generally don’t like to watch the news, social media is a great way to get the information they’re looking for, sports, entertainment, and other things like that. On the weekends, I’ll generally spend more time, maybe 30 minutes to an hour a day on social media to check in on my friends to see what they’re doing. But definitely during the week, it’s a little bit more limited.

Manashree: I spend a little bit more time on social media. I probably spend an hour and a half every day. More on the weekends because as Brennan said a lot of students don’t like to get their information from the news. So, I get mine from social media because I feel it is less biased, so that’s where I get most of my information from and that contributes to a lot of time I spend on social media. And I also use it for my homework, I’m in a lot of group chats and we exchange information through our social media.

Jack: I’m probably the same as Brennan because I’m always busy with sports and schoolwork. So I’ll probably spend 15 minutes on weekdays but on weekends I’m probably on my phone all day long, on social media. I don’t really watch the news, none of my friends do. We just go right to Twitter and Snapchat, and it’s all right there for us.

Kayla: I was going to ask is there certain social media that you do spend more time on, you mentioned Snapchat and Twitter, I’m just curious what the main ones would be.

Brennan: I would say Instagram is the most time consuming for me. I’m not on Twitter, Facebook, or VSCO things like that.

Manashree: I’m on Instagram most, and I also use Whatsapp, which is also popular if you have family overseas. I like keeping in touch with my family through that and I don’t use Snapchat, but I am also big on Twitter because that’s where I get my political information from.

Jack: For me, it’s Snapchat, Twitter, and Instagram, the main ones everyone uses.

Kayla: Thanks for sharing. I think it’s interesting how it’s evolved over the last years. Where you know Facebook is old now and now it’s going into other social media platforms. So when you think about social media, what do you like the most about social media?

Manashree: I like that I never feel alone. Some people say social media makes you feel alone, but I’ve never felt closer to people because you find things that you would never think that anybody else has in common. You find those people on social media whether it’s people you’ve seen in real life or people you meet online.

Jack: I like that I can get my news right away like on Twitter and Instagram. It immediately pops up like breaking news about some sport or something. It’s just kind of nice that it comes immediately and you don’t have to watch the news or something.

Brennan: I would definitely agree with both of them, like it’s pretty easy to stay connected with people and it’s really easy to share information. Kind of l ike what they were saying, you can make group chats with people and exchange information. It makes it so much easier to talk with your friends. I know on the soccer team we have Snapchat group chats and it’s a good way to send information, send pictures to one another, any information. So I think that’s like a huge benefit of social media especially because kids our age aren’t going to be like on email, they’re not really going to check that.

Kayla: Those group messages are big, is what I’m hearing a lot of staying connected. Manashree made a great point, who you meet people you didn’t know had the same interests as before, so it’s really easy to connect with people.

Manashree: And it’s not just people that you normally talk with. I also use social media to keep people updated. Like my Instagram posts, like what’s going on in my life. Even if I haven’t talked to you in two years, you still follow me and I can keep you updated and that’s really unique.

Brennan: What’s awesome going of that I mean, for example, my older brother was studying abroad a few years ago, and that’s a great way to see those pictures of him and his friends. I actually guest played with a Brazillian team for soccer when I was younger, so all of us still follow each other on Instagram so it’s cool to still see what they’re doing. Kind of like getting a taste of another part of the world, so that’s another benefit for sure.

Kayla: I have to agree it’s a big benefit. Our world is big, but yet it’s small because of how easily connected we could be with one another. So when we think about how social media impacts your life, how do you feel about social media just impacting your life in general?

Manashree: I think it’s only impacted my life for the better. There will always be negatives but the positives outweigh those. As I said before, you feel so connected, you feel the comradery of being with other people and different causes that I’m involved in. It has helped me through so many difficult times knowing that you’re not alone going through things and I think it’s only impacted my life for the better.

Jack: I feel like it's just an easier to way to help connect with people and it’s just nice kind of having it and just going out there. You post something and you can see the people that are there to help you.

Brennan: I agree with both of those points. I think there are some downsides like people are posting all these things you kind of feel like you’re being left out sometimes or like, “man there life seems so great.” But I think people, you always have to remember that people are putting the highlight of their life out there on social media, so there’s a lot of things that you need to remember. I think that if you have this strong support system, family, and friends, you don’t need a lot you just need the ones that really matter. That’s going to give you the confidence to know that your life is super great too and you got all the things that you need to be happy as well.

Manashree: That’s definitely something I’ve struggled with and I’ve gotten past it now. But, it definitely took some. Because, as a woman of color I scroll through Instagram and I see women in advertisements, in other people’s posts. It’s hard because you constantly see one race being highlighted and being put on a pedestal and going through that when I'm in my developing stages you tend to idolize and look for that in your life. And when it’s not there it’s disappointing. But, you learn to grow through that and it’s only made me stronger.

Brennan: So, kind of agreeing with you, people really need to get that sense of reassurance and kind of understand how to respond to social media. You know it can be dangerous if they didn’t go through that development that you went through. It can be pretty dangerous, I think. I think most people whatever it is for them, I think they need to understand how to work through those issues of feeling less than, other things like that. You need to find that self-worth somewhere.

Kayla: I think that’s an important factor as you talked about. Growing up, I think a lot of students, elementary, middle school, you’re trying to figure out who you are and what you’re all about your interests. And I think that’s where, educating a little bit more on social media and really reflecting on who you are, and seeing other role models, you can blaze a trail for other women of color, as well to be out there.

Jack: I think social media helps with figuring out where you belong. And what you want to be when you’re older and showing who you are.

Kayla: So, when we think about how it’s impacting our lives, we’ve heard a little bit of positive and a little bit of negative there, too. So, when we talk specifically about mental health, what are
your thoughts and how it impacts mental health?

Manashree: I think that it’s very easy to look at social media and villainize it and say that this is making you feel alone, this is making you feel like you have to compete for a spot in someone’s eyes. I went through that, and I’ve grown from it. But, when I was in that stage it was tough because you feel like you’re putting your best parts on social media. But when nobody sees the nights you cry yourself to sleep because you are going through something with friends or you are upset because you got a bad grade on something. We don’t share that, and so when we do highlight the best parts of our lives it creates a facade. And we all know this facade is up with other people but we don’t address that all of us are going through tough things.

Brennan: I feel like, going off of that, it’s this unspoken thing. Everyone knows that everyone is putting the best parts of their life out there. And I think if people get too focused on, “Oh, I need to compete with them” or “I need to put the best thing about me out there.” People are kind of forgetting about the behind the scenes things and taking care of those issues first. I mean social media has a lot of great aspects to it, I just don’t see any mental health benefits behind it. At least, not yet. I just think it’s making people put more attention on those false or fake, I don’t want to say false, but those kinds of like images that are like, “Oh, my life is so great.'' You don’t want to put too much emphasis on those things. I think if people are spending so much time focusing on that, they’re going to spend less time figuring out issues that are very important to their mental health and well being.

Manashree: I think that there used to be a lot of toxicity around social media, but now we’re getting to a point where we realize that other people are going through things. And people aren't afraid to say, “‘Well, my therapist told me,’ on Twitter,” that’s like trending always. “My therapist told me this,” “My doctor told me this,” “My parents and I had a fight about this,” because we’re ok with sharing that. So, it is getting better. I follow a lot of accounts on Instagram that talk about mental health and there are a lot of resources. I know if you’re scrolling through Instagram you can get ads. If you’re going through something, or need someone to talk to, “here’s this website, you can get free counseling.” There are resources available and I feel like if you’re going through something and you feel like social media is contributing to this, there are ways and outlets to get that help.

Jack: Agreeing with that, there are a lot of ads out there that are like, “Here’s this website, call this number.” It’s just crazy how much impact there is on social media on helping others.

Kayla: So it sounds like a lot of, you know when you’re talking about mental health, there's a lot of resources out there that can be found. There’s a lot of good connections that can be made for support if you’re going through some mental health, very emotional spot in your life. I also heard that unspoken, where everyone does put their best self out there and people know that. Still that unspoken, but when you’re growing up, it’s good to remind yourself of that. Some of the younger generation that you’re only seeing a glimpse. I think you were talking about a false reality, Brennan.

Brennan: Sort of building off of Manashree’s point, she was sort of saying how people share those things online about like, “Oh, my therapist said this,” things like that. I get where you’re coming from with that point, how people are becoming more open online. I don’t believe that social media is the place where comments should be made on there like that. I just think that’s just more personal and they can be dealt with your family. I just don’t think the whole world needs to know those personal issues. Like, if I’m going through something, it doesn’t need to be about me. I feel like if I put something like that on social media, I’m making my personal issues about everyone else, like they should give me attention, things like that. I don’t think you need attention from hundreds of people you need attention from the people who care about you, like your family. So, I get where you’re coming from, I just have a different viewpoint on that. But, I do think you brought up a really good point about the resources that are available online. I think that’s great, they should take advantage of those. I just don’t think social media should be an outlet to put those feelings out there.

Kayla: I think that’s were, obviously we’re all different people, right? Some people, that might help them feel better, and some people on the flip side it wouldn’t. So kind of reflecting, on how everybody navigates the situation differently. Some people put that out there, like I said, that might help them. Others might feel, “No I’m not going there, I’m going to keep my issues and problems to myself, my close friends, and family.”

Manashree: And to the point of keeping it within close circles, I want to clarify, a lot of people will post these to their finstas or their private stories. You wouldn’t post it to your 1,300 followers on Instagram, you’d post it to your 30 followers on your private story. Or maybe 100 if it’s less severe to your finsta. It’s not sharing it with your elementary school friends you don’t keep in contact with anymore, but there is still a lot of sharing within the close circles. I think that’s only brought at least to me and my friends closer. When we’re going through tough things, it’s good to know there’s other people you can lean on. It’s nice.

Kayla: One thing I’ve never thought of before was sharing it to just those close circles.

Brennan: That’s a really good point, I’m glad the conversation took us there.

Jack: Like other people who post to their main account, like on Snapchat, Instagram, or Twitter. I feel like it’s a way for them to try and grab attention from everyone. It gets kind of old. You don’t need to do it every week or whatever they do. Like saying how sad they are, it’s like, yah we feel bad for you, but you don’t need to tell everyone in the world, just a few people. And they can be there for you.

Brennan: In that sense you’re kind of calling for help but you’re still making everything about you. We don’t need a culture that’s grown up thinking its all about me. And obviously people need to give that person attention, but you can’t ask the whole world to give you attention. That’s like a certain amount of people.

Manashree: So one thing I do, it’s kind of a little bit weird. But one thing I do, on my finsta, if I’m ever feeling down or upset about something, I’ll post something that says, “Can you please say something nice about me, or give me words of encouragement.” I have a very private finsta, it has 30 followers on it, almost every single one of them will say something, and it just makes you feel so good because those are the people you’re closest too. So, when they can say good things about you, it makes you feel good. You don’t have to shout it out on the rooftop to your thousands of followers. But, when you’re talking to those close people, it’s really nice to feel loved, I guess.

Kayla: That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing. So, now just to clarify, because I know there will be some listeners who are like, “What is a finsta.” Can you explain what that is? Because honestly, I’m not even sure what that is.

Jack: A finsta is like, they call it funny Instagram page, where you can post goofy things or some meaningful things. But, it’s only for a few people, you don’t allow the world to follow you.

Manashree: So my regular Instagram account is public, so anyone can see it if they choose too. But, my finsta is obviously private and I really don’t let anybody follow it. Because sometimes you post things that people will expose you for or you post it where you don’t feel comfortable posting it somewhere else. It’s just mainly close people who want to know those details about your life.

Kayla: That’s helpful. Thank you. So do you think that most students have both accounts?

Jack: For sure.

Brennan: I actually don’t, but I follow my friends. It’s common.

Kayla: I learn something new everyday.

Manashree: And like my mom follows my regular account, but I would never let my mom follow my finsta.

Kayla: Thank you for clarifying that. So, as we think about, we’ve had a really great discussion about social media. As far as your relationships, and how its impacted relationships, I know we touched on this a little bit, but just when specifically how it has impacted your relationships and maybe what ways, would you like to share you experience with that?

Jack: Social media has definitely brought me and my buddies closer. Me and my buddies, we have a group chat of just us, ten or twelve. We hang out every week and we send memes. It’s just a nice little, it just brings us a lot closer I feel like. If we didn’t have it we would not be close at all, I feel like.

Brennan: I agree with Jack. I have a group chat too with my buddies. We do the exact same thing. It’s fun. I think it definitely brings people closer together. Obviously, you don’t want to abuse it and tear people down, but if you’re using it the right way, sending funny videos, it’s super easy and fun. Kind of builds inside jokes with your friends.

Manashree: And FaceTime, I don’t know if you would consider that as social media, but I probably spend way too much time on FaceTime. I’ll just be doing my homework and my friend will be doing her homework and once a while we’ll crack a joke. We’ll just have so many laughs, like I spend so many late nights just talking about my life with my friends and I wouldn’t have that if it weren’t for FaceTime. My friend who has a Samsung, we use Snapchat video.

Kayla: So it’s like when you’re FaceTiming doing homework, you have homework a buddy but you're not physically right there. It’s like you have the resource and support. Moving on to the impacts about social media, do you ever worry about the impacts of social media?

Brennan: I’ll be honest, I do sometimes. With the whole mental health, missing out, FOMO, or whatever. I worry about that. And I think, some kinds if they don’t have that system put in place to make sure they are valued in life and everything. I get worried kind of how to respond to social media and things that are going on. I definitely think that if you have that in place and you know your worth and all those things then I think social media is definitely a great tool.

Jack: I see my buddies post that they’re doing this fun thing. I missed out because I had baseball and I was kind of jealous, it was upsetting, but it’s life. They were posting their highlights, they were having a good time. I will see them after.

Manashree: I think my biggest worry about social media is my digital footprint. The things you post are said to last forever and some things I’ve posted I haven’t been proud of. So, I hear stories about how these two boys were kicked out of Harvard because of a racist tweet they had posted years ago. Obviously, I haven’t done anything like that, but I’ve posted things that maybe shouldn’t of been said and I wonder if a college or future employer will see those things will that be used against me? That’s a serious question that I feel like all of us. Say we have a student who runs for president in twenty years, what’s going to come out about them? You have to really consider that.

Kayla: That’s a really great, great point.

Brennan: It’s a big ask to have to act like your an adult when you’re on social media at a very young age. I think I got Instagram when I was in fifth grade, so I was like twelve. You got to be mature at a very young age, so that is a concern. You need to give people a chance and let them change. You can’t have a predetermined, “You’ll always be like that or you’ll always be like that.” You have to let people change and become a new person and learn from their mistakes.

Jack: A lot has been happening this year with the NFL, with everyone tweeting about the worst player and if they lose they’ll get off the team immediately. It’s just crazy how social media affects the lifestyle of some people and ruins their career possibly.

Manashree: There are very, very real percussions with posting things and I feel like we were never prepared or we were never taught that. Like Brennan said, we started social media when we were in middle school or finished elementary school. How are teachers supposed to know to tell us that. I don’t think anybody could have predicted how volatile social media could become and so we weren’t prepared for that. I’m sure all of us have made mistakes before because of it and I don’t want to be held accountable for something that I was never taught not to do by anybody. My parents couldn’t teach me that, teachers couldn’t teach me that, who was supposed to tell me that?

Kayla: So I think moving forward kind of going on that same concept and that same train of thought, what could we do to help prepare younger generations, help younger students realize that? Do you have any suggestions?

Manashree: I think media literacy is a big thing if we’re talking about politics. We’re not taught that and it’s really important, because a lot of us get our information about politics and news from social media, so learning how to discern between something that's a fact and something that’s not. But also the way we are taught to go about social media is so antiquated. It should be more conversation based, it should be more like this. Because then I don’t feel like I’m being shamed if I’ve done something in the past and so that just makes me not want to listen even more. I feel like the conversation surrounding social media needs to be less preaching and more trying to understand where kids are coming from. And educating them to try to help them avoid doing things without shaming them, because that’s the system we have right now.

Kayla: I think that the conversation piece is big. In a lot of classrooms would be more beneficial to have that conversation with students and I feel like social media has changed even since last year. Every year it’s changing, so having those real-life conversations and really hearing the student perspective, even this podcast right here has been helpful for me to hear what our students are going through on a daily basis. So having those conversations surrounding that, starting at a young age. If you think about families, do families ever have that conversation with you about social media at all?

Jack: Just being cautious about what you post and being smart about social media.

Brennan: The classic don’t send it if you wouldn’t want your grandma to see it, cliche yah.

Kayla: I think that’s you know, a good conversation that they do bring up. I think it’s also one of those things where, they don’t even know all that’s out there. I work in a school system and I don’t even know all that’s out there.

Manashree: I also think you have to learn as you go because you have to go through what you go through and it’s a cliche phrase but it’s true, I have become stronger and more resilient because I’ve been knocked down many times. I honestly don’t regret posting a lot of things because I’ve learned so much through it, but at the same time it wouldn't hurt to maybe be told a different perspective on why not to post it. I was yelled at by my parents after certain things have happened and that wasn’t really productive.

Kayla: Live and learn, right?

Jack: For parents actually, my parents are on social media. My mom and dad both have Snapchat and so they kinda see what I’m up to as well, and they all have Instagram. I think parents definitely get involved in anything, parents can enjoy it too. They can live and learn with us.

Kayla: I think that’s a good strategy too. Parents that are listening, you can ask your child about it and learn with them and they can teach you about it. As far as, just what works for you in terms of social media, you all mentioned you’re on it daily, how do you balance between social media and reality, things that you have going on.

Brennan: This is my personal opinion, obviously people are going to be different. For me, social media comes last. I care about people in my life that are closest to me and I don’t need the whole world to hear what I’m up to. I have homework, church, and other activities. Friends and family always come first, so social media will be the last thing I do each night. I mean the only time I look at social media is pretty much right after school or before I go to bed. I try to limit it I guess, and I just have other things going on that I believe are more important. That’s just my personal opinion, I know other people tend to and like to be on it more.

Jack: I’m the same as Brennan pretty much. I focus more on my family and my closer friends and then homework and school, sports are my main focus. If I can get on social media then I go on it for a half-hour or so, and then I’ll just head to bed or something, be done with it for the night.

Kayla: Can I ask you a quick follow up question to both of those perspectives? Are you doing the group chats and conversations throughout the day or are you waiting to do those after?

Brennan: Those will be throughout the day. I’m the captain of the soccer team, so if they need something from me I’ll be on there kind of reaching out. As far as scrolling through Instagram, I’ll wait for that.

Manashree: Nobody wants to wake up to a hundred messages. I think it’s interesting that both of you said that you use Instagram less. And I wonder if it has to do with the fact that you both are boys?

Jack: I use Snapchat the most. Probably Snapchat and Twitter, right about there.

Manashree: Do you think that you have to answer to societal norms in regards to social media? Do you feel the need to post less and have a picture-perfect life less? I guess you have nothing to compare it to.

Brennan: I feel like guys in general aren’t - I haven’t felt the need to, “Man I need to post that.” I never felt that. Like, “I need to post a selfie because I look good in this cornfield.” I just post my highlights, football or hockey and baseball. Or somewhere I go, post something cool about it.

Manashree: I think for me it’s different because I feel like I’m scrutinized at every single angle. Like, “Oh, I have a pimple in this picture, I’m not going to post it,” well so does everybody else. But, I still don’t want to post it because we’re posting the best version of ourselves. I think that when people are looking at my Instagram, I think that they see the worst, because sometimes I tend to see the worst in other people’s posts. That kind of contributes to the toxicity surrounding Instagram. But, I feel like I’m on it more and to post more because I have to prove that I’m living that life. At least, on my main Instagram. But, I think it’s interesting because I feel like more girls are on social media more and have to answer to the norms, more. Like, I don’t post a lot, but I will be scrolling through other people’s Instagram account or I’ll be on the explore page, because I like watching funny Tik Toks and finding good memes deep into Instagram. I just feel like it may be the fact that I’m a girl has to do more with why I’m on social media.

Brennan: I have a sister, so I would agree with that. I can understand that.

Jack: My sister posts all the time on Instagram it’s like - I get that she likes posting and showing the world how great a life she lives or whatever, it’s like you don’t need to post all that. Some of it is cool, but you don’t need to post a selfie, everybody knows what you look like.

Brennan: Building off of Jack’s point, I know like for my sister, she’ll be like, “Oh my God, what should my comment be.” I personally don’t like to overthink it, I’ll just go with the comments on my mind. I love my sister and I just want my sister to know that's what matters, she doesn’t have to overthink these things. I don’t want her to be mad at me, if she listens to this podcast. I’m just speaking with my experience with girls in general on social media and guys are guys, they don’t really notice a lot of things. Like girls go get their eyebrows done, like I wouldn’t of noticed. You don’t need to overthink it.

Manashree: I also think that girls post less for guys. Girls post more for girls.

Brennan: I would agree with that.

Manashree: It’s not trying to prove something to boy. It’s more like I need the validation from other girls. If we’re generalizing I know guys don’t pay much about those things. So, I’m posting it more for other people, like a girl’s validation. That’s what I find myself doing.

Jack: Just trying to fit in, I know how it is.

Kayla: I think that validation is you know, you’re trying to figure things out. As a female, I see that a lot in school counseling, too. Girls in highschool, there’s a lot of insecurities and they’re working through those insecurities and it’s helpful to have that friend circle for that validation piece of it. As far as, Manashree did you want to expand more on how you balance social media too?

Manashree: I wouldn’t say that I’m particularly good at it. I spend for sure too much time on it. If I don’t feel like doing my homework that’s what I’ll do instead when there are other more productive outlets for me. But, at the same time I still get all my work done. I may lose an hour or two of sleep to catch up on my homework but, I can’t really speak to the balance because I don’t have it.

Kayla: Well, I appreciate the honesty. There are many high schoolers that are in the same situation that you are, where they don’t have that balance yet. Not even high schoolers, just students in general. They’re working on figuring out what works for them, what doesn’t work for them. They’re trying to figure out that balance. I appreciate the honesty on that one. The last question here as we wrap things up. Any thoughts on how you feel like social media could be improved, what adults could do, what individuals could do, what schools could do? It’s a big question but any closing thoughts on that?

Jack: You can be smarter in what you say, what you post, and just be more cautious. Just think of what other people think. If I say, “Oh Brennan’s sweatshirt kind of looks weird in that”. That would be rude and I don’t want everyone coming at me saying, “Oh you’re a mean person”, well I’m just like, “I didn’t like that sweatshirt.” But, I shouldn’t have posted that, I should have kept that to myself and just post the nice and positive things about people. By the way Brennan, I like your sweatshirt.

Manashree: I think for myself, I’ve come to a point in my life where I’m kind of like, I need to stop proving to other people that I’m here and I’m worth looking at. I used to edit my pictures and now I don’t anymore. I stopped doing that because that’s again pushing forward the facade that you have to look a certain way to get alike. I think that it’s really important if you want to edit your pictures do it. But it’s nice to take a step back and say this is what I look like and I don’t want to edit it, I don’t need to look a certain way to please somebody else.

I think it’s important for parents to be involved, but also overreaching is a huge issue and it can cause kids to even want to be more private. So, if you try to follow your kids’ finsta account, for example, absolutely not. If I let you follow it then I’m creating another finsta that you don’t follow. I don’t think that parents should necessarily get involved. Just make sure you’re there to talk about it, ask open-ended questions that gives your kid a chance to explain their life that they’re living on social media. As for teachers and schools, I think it’s important for schools, as I said before, to not shame students, not to villainize social media, but rather help us go through it. Just being better citizens on the internet as we would expect it to be in person.

Kayla: Thank you for including that conversation piece.

Brennan: I think to respond to that question, just say for students before you post ask yourselves a few questions. Like, why are you posting it? What image are you trying to get across? Who do you want the world to think you are? Because a lot of people are going to see what you post, whether it’s in your comments or just a picture in general. I know for me personally, I’m a bit of an old soul, I’m not super used to slang and pop culture references. I’m not going to be the one to try to get up to date with those things. I’m personally just not invested in trying to fit in like that.

The image I’m trying to put out into the world is like, hey this is me and I’m proud of who I am. I think a lot of people need to remember that. So, I’ll just put a basic comment like a forty- or fifty-year-old might write and I really don’t care. That’s just who I want the world to see me as- just a regular guy. I don’t need to be over the top. I’m just putting out, hey this is me, I did this, hope you guys enjoyed this post. And your point was really great like you don’t need to seek anyone else’s validation, put it out there and be proud of who you are and to flip the tables when you see someone doing that too, just being like, “that’s awesome, good for you.” I’m not going to make fun of someone because they’re using pop culture references, it’s just not what I do. That’s the biggest thing, golden rule, it always comes back to you, treat others the way you want to be treated.

Kayla: Well I just want to say thank you so much to all three of you for being here today and sharing your thoughts and experiences and being so honest and open with us. It’s really helpful insight to hear what it’s like for students living in this day and age. So, really good suggestions moving forward for our listeners, so just wanted to thank you again.

Thank you for listening to our conversation today. You can learn more about our guests and find tips and resources about managing social media and mental health online at www.sowashco.org/livingonline. This podcast was produced by South Washington County Schools thanks to funding from a grant provided by Prairie Care.